Your Have to Get the Human Part Right First, With Ryan Canin

In this episode of The Digital Banking Podcast, host Josh DeTar sat down with Ryan Canin, CEO of DocFox, to explore the multifaceted world of technology, empathy, and innovation in the banking industry. They discussed the impact of COVID-19 on client relationships, emphasizing the newfound intimacy and connection through virtual meetings. Canin shared insights into breaking down barriers and the importance of open dialogue in the workplace.

The conversation took a deeper dive into the challenges of leadership and the courage to pursue big ideas. Canin reflected on his personal experiences and the complexities of diversity and inclusion within the tech space. He emphasized the need for empathy and openness to make progress in these areas.

Finally, they touched on the success stories and the transformation of traditional banking culture. The episode concluded with a candid discussion of personal and professional growth, weaving together themes of life, business, and work.

Transcript

josh_: [00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of the Digital Banking Podcast. My guest today is Ryan Cannon, the c e o of Doc Fox. Ryan says, everyone always asks Anyway, so first off, let's just get it out of the way. His funny accent, it's from South Africa. Ryan immigrated here to the us bringing with him a from birth, genuine desire to connect with people on deep and empathetic levels as someone with an inherent sensitivity to others.

Ryan's always been interested in building relationships and having shared experiences with amazing people. This passion actually led him to set a world record at the age of 12. Ryan spent over a year and a half collecting cans of food, money, and sponsorships to build the largest canned food construction composed of [00:01:00] 25,656 cans in the shape of a rocket.

Funny story. His first sponsor for that charity drive and subsequent world record was at the time the youngest partner at K P M G. Fast forward many years, and that very same person became his business partner and the first investor in his software company. As Ryan stood back and looked at his world record canned food rocket, he had a revelation.

The point in time he was in started over a year and a half ago as nothing more than an idea. Through working with amazing people, not without lots of challenges and failures, he added. This had become a reality. And so this realization was if you set your mind to something, it's really amazing what you can do.

And it was in that moment, Ryan realized this is what he wanted to do for the rest of his life. Build amazing things alongside [00:02:00] amazing people. And for him, the people mattered more than anything. As his software company started to work with some of the biggest banks in the world, a new realization came to Ryan if relationships mattered so much to him, his focus should include community financial institutions, not just the big banks.

So here he is today, working on building amazing products with amazing people to solve real problems for financial institutions. Now Ryan is obsessed with the community fi space, but only almost as much as his love and obsession for his St. Bernard's. So Ryan, uh, welcome to the show. I'm glad to have you here.

ryan: Thanks, Josh. Really glad to be here.

josh_: Um, all right. I mean, you know, usually we like to jump right in, start talking about topics. We're here to talk about, you know, technology and community financial institutions, but I feel like we can't just leave that whole, uh, you know, 26,000 [00:03:00] cans, uh, rocket, just like sitting there. So, uh, I, I think it's just such a cool story.

You should take a second just to kind of walk us through a little bit of, uh, one day, 12 year old Ryan wakes up and is like, you know what? I should a giant freaking rocket outta cans.

ryan: Yeah, I mean, it, it's a, you know, it's kind of cool. So basically I grew, so I grew up in, uh, I grew up in Johannesburg, South Africa. Um, and there was this really cool thing called the Mini City Council, which was basically — it was a group, uh, essentially a nonprofit group where kids who were, let's say 12 years old, uh, were joined by the schools and it was a replica, uh, or a copy of this actual city council.

And so that the idea was how do you teach kids, um, you know, leadership skills? How do you, you know, get kids involved and engaged in their community? So, you know, all these schools around the city would nominate two counselors and they would come in and then there were elections and they had all the different roles like the mayor and the chief whip and the public relations [00:04:00] officer.

It was pretty fun. And, um, you know, while, while we were on that, that during that year, uh, someone had the idea to say, why don't we go and collect some canned food, uh, bring it to one of the schools on a Sunday. We'll, we'll maybe make little shapes or structures out of it. Um, and maybe we'll then donate it to charity.

And I just, I always loved the idea. I liked the idea, but it kind of wasn't big enough for me. And so I was like, you know, how do we, and, and my, my year had then finished, so that had come and gone. And I was, I was, before I was gonna bed one night, I was like, man, wouldn't it be cool if we ended up building like a huge tower?

Of these cans and so big that we had like news helicopters circling this thing, you know, in the school field there was this like, you know, this big idea. And um, and I was like, I think I, I remember going to bed and going, I think we should do that. Like, we should go and collect a whole bunch of food as a charity drive and we should do this thing seriously.

You know, like, let's really pump this thing up instead of just being a bunch of shopping carts. You know, you're kind of traditional [00:05:00] collecting with, you know, some food outside of a supermarket. Um, and so that was really the idea and I think that I got, I got all pumped and excited about it. Um, and so, you know, but the challenge of course is how do you get, how do you get folks to contribute cans, right?

I mean, we needed a lot of cans. And so I thought at the time, I, you know, as a kid I used to watch Guinness World Records every Sunday night on tv. They had the TV show and you got to see, you know, the latest world records. And so I thought, well what about if we did, if we broke a world record that would enable us to be able to get big, um, um, you know, corporate sponsors to donate.

Because corporate sponsors, all they need is advertising. That's where the news helicopter comes in. Uh, and I was like, okay, I've got my business model, right? If I build a tower big enough so that news helicopters come and fly around it, I can then convince, you know, a big company to come and sponsor it for us.

So that was the, that was the model. Um, and, um, man, it was, um, um, it was, it was a pretty crazy time because I didn't have, you know, it's not like I, I didn't grow up with like [00:06:00] connections or network or, or anything like that. So I did networking like anyone does and, and, or like any 12 year old does. And just, happened to ask my doctor when I was at him, and so I think I had a cold.

And I said to my doctor, I said, Hey, doc, what's an auditor? And he said, why? I said, well, I asked, like the librarian at school helped me to send a fax to Guinness. They responded and they said, yeah, we do have a record. And it's the largest canned food construction. And in the rules, if you want to actually set a record with Guinness, you either need to pay them to fly out one of their judges.

Or you can get an auditor, uh, to do it like from a Big four audit firm. And so he's, you know, he explained it to me. I don't think I actually even still realize what it was, but he said his son was an auditor and his son was, was one of the youngest partners, uh, at K P M G. And so I said, great, can I 

josh_: Wow. 

ryan: And uh, and he said, sure, I'll introduce you. And so I got to meet him, uh, and, and he was great. Uh, his name's Richard and Rich. Uh, you know, rich was awesome. And I said [00:07:00] to Rich, Hey, I just need a letter with, with KPMG's letter head on, and I just need you to say that you'll sponsor the event. And he said, okay, cool, no worries.

Um, and he was, you know, he kind of, he just bought into, right? He was, but I, I'm not sure I should actually ask him if he really actually believed me at the time that anything would happen. But, you know, he, uh, so he, he said, yeah, sure, we'll sponsor it. And he gave me this letter. And then I called, I was like, okay, now I've got KPMG as a sponsor.

Now what I need to do is get the biggest supermarket to sponsor us, basically. And it's the equivalent of like the Walmart in South Africa. And so I opened up the phone book and I, you know, found the main number for their switchboard. Uh, and I phoned it. And, um, you know, I'm like 12 years old. So I called the reception and I'm like, hello, can I please speak to, you know, and I, and I put in the name of the C e o, he was a pretty famous businessman in South Africa.

And, uh, and, uh, his name was Jonathan Ackerman. And I said, uh, you know, hello, can I please speak to Jonathan? And of course, you know, this place probably has, you know, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of employees, right? And so eventually I managed to get through the, the, the executive assistant to the c E [00:08:00] O.

And she says to me, her name was Lynn. I don't remember her name. And Lynn says to me, um, I remember she kind of like batted me off as any good ea would do, right? To like really protect the CEO's time. And every day after school, I would come home and I'd call the exact same number. And I'd asked to speak to Lynn now, uh, and I'd, you know, and eventually after a week I was driving her nuts.

And she just said to me, all right, Ryan, stop calling. Send me an email and I'll see if I share it with Jonathan. And so I asked my teacher, he helped me write an email. We shared it. Do you know that the next week I get an email to say, Hey, Jonathan has agreed to meet with you.

josh_: What.

ryan: So next I had a meeting with the CEO of one of the largest, you know, supermarket chains.

Um, which was really cool. And so, you know, I spoke to my mom and I'm like, Mom, can you, can you drive me to, I've got a meeting. Can you drive me to this meeting? And I even went to my brother's cupboard and I took out, I thought, you know, man, if I got a meeting, I better have a briefcase. You know, every, every [00:09:00] meeting has, you know, every successful meeting has a person with a briefcase.

So, you know, I went as, you know, those like leather folio like pads. It's almost, it looks like a briefcase, but it's actually not. You unzip it and it opens up and you've got like paper and pens and stuff. So that's, so that's what I found. It was totally empty, by the way. And so I took this empty leather folio case as my briefcase, uh, you know, which I then took to, took to my meeting.

And, uh, and that started, it's a much longer story, but that basically, you know, he, he was wonderful. He was super kind and he, you know, connected me with their C F O. Um, she, I, I nicknamed the dragon lady. 'cause she, she, uh, you know, she, boy does she make me cry. I remember going in and she said, all right, you know, what about logistics and have you thought about if food goes off, where are you gonna store this?

You know, what about insurance? What's our liability looking like? What are you thinking about in terms of press timelines? You know, do you have an advertising agency behind this? Where's your budget? You know, and so on and so forth. Oh man. And I was just like, Look lady, I just wanna collect a bunch of food and donate it to hungry kids. [00:10:00] I don't know what any of these things mean, you know? Um, but, you know, I went, I went back to Richard at K P M G and I said, can you help me do their budget? I don't even know what that is. Um, and um, and yeah, and kind of like one thing, you know, led to another. Um, and um, and I think the common thread throughout all of that was, uh, being able to be, uh, vulnerable, open and sincere.

Um, and I've just found that like, in the world works in amazing ways. Like when you, when you open up, uh, and you're open to folks and you, you know, there's a sincerity that kind of comes across. Uh, it's quite extraordinary, I think, how many people wanna get on board and help out and contribute and, you know, and so I think that was the, um, you know, when you spoke about, in terms of the intro, I think that, you know, that became very much a passion of mine and it was just a lot of fun, you know?

So, uh, so, you know, it took about a year, I wanna say a year and a half. Oh man. We ended up getting, um, one of the largest malls, um, gave us [00:11:00] their center court for a long weekend. Uh, you know, to be able to, to be able to build. We, we, we got an engineer involved who, who helped us pressure test the cans at the main engineering university.

And like, it was Wow. Like, it ended up going in so many different directions. And I remember as a kid, I, I had, you know, South Africa was a pretty conservative place, you know, every school, you wear uniforms and, you know, it's, it's not like in the US system. And I remember having, I had permission to be able to take calls during class.

You know, I was the only kid that had permission to take calls during class. It was like, it was hysterical, but it was, it was such fun. And man, it was like, uh, it was such a wild time. So, um, um, I was like, I just wanna do that. You know? I wanna do that for the rest of my life. That's pretty cool.

josh_: Okay. First question I have to ask, do you still have the quote unquote briefcase?

ryan: Oh, that's a great question. No, I actually don't. It's

josh_: Ah, I say like, please tell me

ryan: that would've been a 

josh_: DocFox office

somewhere 

ryan: that would've been so cool. I should actually look for it. I should go back the next time [00:12:00] I'm in South Africa and have a look and see if it's like in my sister or brother's house somewhere.

josh_: Yeah. That's wild.

ryan: The lucky briefcase.

josh_: I was, um, when we were just, you know, kind of talking and, and prepping for this podcast and, and just talking about your intro and you were telling me this story, I was like, this is such a fascinating story and I feel like it tells me so much about you as a person and just your personality and like what makes you tick.

But I was like, how the heck do we, you know, how the heck do we go from that story to talking about, you know, technology in, um, community financial institutions and challenges and opportunities? And, and I'm gonna be totally honest, I, I really didn't even know where the heck I was gonna go with this when I asked you the question at the very start of like, tell us this story.

But as you were talking, It really hit me that I, I mean you're, you were talking about being this 12 year old boy laying there in bed going, ah, I wanna do that. I wanna do it bigger. I want [00:13:00] helicopters flying overhead. And it made me think like, how many of us go through that same soft process, right? Like, I want to do this amazing thing, this incredible thing.

I have this crazy idea. And that's where it dies. And I think that that gets worse as we get older, right? The world jades us. We learn that, you know, every opportunity is fraught with peril and challenges, and we're gonna get kicked and beat down along the way. And so we just sometimes never even start.

And I mean, it was just fascinating hearing you talk about this starts at this 12 year old boy laying in bed going, I wanna build a really big tower of cans so I can donate that to hungry kids. Awesome idea, super noble. And then where it ends up is a whole nother story, right? Like, uh, hearing you tell me that you end up getting involved with an engineer to do, you [00:14:00] know, stress testing on the cans for how tall can we build this thing.

Like when you originally had the idea, you could, obviously, you know, uh, say that that was not a part of your original thought process. And you know, this original woman, uh, the, the dragon lady, like all of her hard questions, like you went into that with, with no answers to those questions and not even knowing what some of the questions even meant.

But yet, like you said, a year and a half later you're standing there in front of the tower with your Guinness World record going, huh? This started from just an idea and it took on a totally different life than what I originally. You know, set out thinking it was gonna be, but here I am. Like we ultimately pulled it off.

And I think that is an amazing thought process to think about when you start thinking about, um, how many [00:15:00] times, you know, we're looking at just the challenges and opportunities in business. And when we're talking about, you know, the new landscape for community financial institutions, there's tons of challenges.

There's tons of opportunities, right? So for us, I just, I think that's such a cool life lesson that, you know, hey, if you're listening and you're, you know, uh, a leader at a community financial institution and you're laying in bed tonight with this crazy idea is don't let it die. I don't know, you could be standing in front of, you know, your 26,000 can world record rocket a year and a half later, I guess is the moral of the story.

ryan: Yeah, Josh, I love that. I think, you know, when I, I think I was just fortunate that I got that lesson, so, yeah. You know, because I think, I think that it kind of then just got solidified for me. Maybe, uh, you know, that, that, that is the reality, because I think that actually, uh, most, most kids, most teenagers, um, [00:16:00] you know, I think have that sort of naivety and ignorance that is so useful.

Uh, you know, I, I, I often think about this today, it's like, oh man, if I had known the, the complexity that's gonna be involved in taking on different challenges, I'm not sure I would've been as. As keen to go forward and, you know, and just dive right in. Right? It's like if I'd mapped out absolutely everything, if I had total awareness of all the difficulties and challenges, um, and often it's like those opportunities are often some of the hardest ones, which, because of that almost by definition are the most valuable.

It's like, because those problems are some of the hardest to solve, they are the most helpful. And as I think back, if I think back in my career, and if I think through even just what I see in the market so often, if you just purely rely on, you know, feedback from others, if you only let that be your yard stick to decide whether or not you should do an idea, you know, soft and the answer's gonna be, oh, we've [00:17:00] tried that, it's too hard, it's never gonna work.

Right. Um, and I think that, and I think so it's, yeah, it's important to almost think about how you then, how you then what is your own filter for when you do and when you don't take something up. You know, and sometimes, especially when I think about the banking space, and I think about legacy technology issues, which for me is like, it's been on, you know, on the brain for so many banks that I speak to.

And I think it's such a prevalent topic. It's so often, like that's the thing holding people back. It's like, oh yeah, but you know, we'll never get ahead of, you know, fixing these things. And I think we've seen a really cool shift in just the tech landscape around dealing with, you know, legacy cores and vendors and all that other kind of stuff, you know, just over the last kind of three, four years.

And I remember when we first started looking at this and I remember thinking, oh man, I don't know that, that we ever wanna get involved in any integrations into legacy tech. Um, um, you know, just based on this kind of like, it was made out to be this impossible task. And yet, yet, you know, [00:18:00] I'm, I'm looking and I'm seeing what so many banks are doing now in pretty innovative things to break out their technology strategy.

Not being limited necessarily, you know, by those, by those, you know, integration challenges. And I'm going, wow. Okay, cool. Well. Clearly it's not as impossible, you know, as everybody made out. Um, you know, and so, okay, cool. Just break the mold, right?

josh_: Yeah. You know, I love the way you said that too, that um, if you had known, like if you had known that very first night that you had the idea of building this, you know, giant tower of cans, if you had known that you were gonna have to have, you know, a thought process around insurance and you're gonna have to have an engineer stress test this thing.

 Yeah, I'd be really, you know, willing to bet that you probably would've gone to bed going, yeah, that was kind of a cool idea. I'm never gonna do that. And that would've been the end of it. Right. But like you said, like literally [00:19:00] your naivety like, was a blessing in that sense. And you're like, yeah, I could totally do this.

And then you just met each challenge as it came and then overcame it as it came up. And, and I like how you kind of parlayed that over into, you know, thinking about it from a business sense too. You know, I know we've talked about this topic, uh, on the podcast before where, you know, I think that is one of the challenges that we see in business and in community financial institutions where there is a lot of legacy, not just tech, but just legacy.

Legacy involved is a lot of times, you know, somebody comes with an amazing idea and it just gets shot down. Um, And, and it right may be because of, well, we, we tried that before or, uh, we thought about that. And, uh, you know, there does need to be a really interesting filter to make sure you're not spinning your wheels all the time, wasting time, valuable resources, uh, you know, chasing things that are not aligned to your strategic objectives or [00:20:00] not actually gonna provide value.

But at the same time, it's important to say, Hey, you know what? Let's not just kill this thing before it's dead. Like, let's actually try and then let's let it get shot down as we go. But

let's try. 

ryan: decide if it's important first. It's like if, if the thing's important enough. Just because it's not clear how you'll be successful or just because it seems like there's gonna be a tremendous amount of friction is not a good enough reason not to do it. But I think the fundamental question in the beginning is, is it important enough?

So, so, you know, in any kind of idea, and it's like, well, well, I don't know that anyone would start a business, um, if they truly knew all the difficulty and challenge that's actually involved in it, you know, as an example, right? So like, why do entrepreneurs start businesses and then get moving? And I think that, you know, for me at least, it's, it's because for them, um, it is, it's part of their life.

Like it's sufficiently important that it's worth actually giving this thing a [00:21:00] go, right? And then you'll kind of, then you'll find a way. And so, so I agree with you. I, I what I'm, you know, the message for me that I'm not saying is, I'm not saying, Hey, give every single idea a go no matter what, et cetera. No, no.

You've got, you know, you should be very clear around your strategy. You need to be very clear around what your, you know, what, where your strengths lie. But within that, you're, you know, we uncovered different opportunities. We go, oh man, wouldn't it be amazing if fill in the blank? And then usually what that follows that is, but there's all these, you know, and then insert 65 reasons why, what we can't be successful.

And it's like, well, how important is it to be successful? Like, how much opportunity would that unlock? And therefore, is it worth, is it worth in fact actually going, you know, going after.

josh_: Um, you know, I always love having. CEOs of companies as guests on the podcast. Um, and, and I, and I am really specific about, you know, the c e o or founder in specific is always interesting to me. And I even asked you this question, right? As we're kind of working to prep the, um, intro for my guest, um, if this person started a [00:22:00] company, I always, I'm like, so what, what possessed you to do this?

Um, because you know, I think if I even, you know, examined my own life, I've always said, my wife will corroborate this story. I'm like, I'm a really good number two, I don't wanna be number one. I'm just not the guy that's gonna go and start a brand new company. Because I think I've lost that naivety and I've lost some of that, and I've seen how hard it is.

I'm like, I'm not going out. Somebody else can start it. I'll come support 'em. You know? So I always love asking people like, yeah, what made you crazy enough? Or Ryan to decide to wake up one morning and go, you know what? I should get kicked in the shins repeatedly over and over by steel toe boots for years.

I e I should start a company sounds like fun. So it's just, it, it's really interesting to see, you know, your background in, and then I literally started because, you know, you saw, you saw seeing an idea that [00:23:00] had value through at some point in your life and you were like, man, I have this really cool idea.

And it wasn't even like you, I mean, I think you subtly alluded to, but it was never even about you wanted to make a world record. It, it wasn't that you wanted to be on TV with a world record. It was, Hey, I saw that we were able to raise, you know, through this little thing, uh, a bunch of, um, you know, food and funds to help support kids in need.

That's cool. I think we could do that on a bigger scale. So when it started with that really noble mindset, That was kind of your driving light and that's what powered you through a lot of those challenges.

ryan: Yeah, I'm, I think that's, I think that's right. I mean, if you, it's always important to understand your why, right? So like for me, um, it's funny, one of my, one of my board members, every time I called him up, we chat, he's been with me for, he was our first, uh, [00:24:00] he was our first US investor and uh, one of his comments he'd always say to me, like, if we're going through a rough time, I remember, especially in the early days when it's like, you know, we didn't have any customers and I'm just trying to figure it out and, you know, you're knocking on doors and you talk about the being, having a shins kicked.

He'd just say to me, Ryan, just remember startups suck.

josh_: Solid advice.

ryan: And I was like, yep, yep, that's right. Startups suck. And, and I think, you know, the, the way that I always describe it to anybody that we, that we recruiting, especially if they come from maybe like a much larger company background, I often say, look, you need to be, uh, certain that this is the sort of environment that you wanna join.

And because the, the beauty something we are at now, we've now got about 135 people in our business. But I was like, you still at that level, you've got tremendous accountability, right? It's like you have the ability, the work that you're doing has a, a true ability to be able to influence the trajectory of the business.

Um, um, and the work that you're working on is like really meaningful in terms of its ability to influence the outcomes of the [00:25:00] company. And I was like, but that means with that, that when you have a win, Boy, oh boy. Is it, does it feel incredible? So like, you know, I, I mean, I'm a nerdy engineer, so for me it's like, I think of this in, like in terms of a sinusoid.

And so like, if you think of psi graph of incredibly high amplitude, that's what it's like working at a startup, which is that when you have a high boy is at a high because you know, your wins can impact the entire organization and, and in fact often do. But you know, when you make the mistake that causes like the system to go down, you know, or it's your deal that makes the company lose the quarter because you missed it by like two days, or, you know, fill in whatever the blank is in whichever area you work.

Like that low is so much lower. Um, and it almost just, the question is just what do you, what do you want out of it? You know, I mean, I've got, I've got, you know, friends that, that say to me, oh man, you're nuts. I would never wanna do what you do. And I go, why? And they're like, 'cause for me, like I get my energy from, you know, from my family and our ability to be able to go hiking and camping and exploring the [00:26:00] world.

If I did what you did, like I would never be able to get that pleasure. Like, I wanna know that at, you know, 5:00 PM on a Friday, I don't think about work at all. You know, like, it, it leaves my mind. And of course, whatever work I do during the week, I care about, and I'll do my job from nine to five, but like at five o'clock, I need this thing to shut off because I wanna go and do the thing that fuels me and gives me purpose, which for, you know, for them is like connecting to nature.

And I think for, you know, and, and, and, and that's extraordinary, right? Like, so for me it's like, I think it's once you define your why and figure out your why, you know, that's what I think, that's what ends up fueling you. So for, and, and you know, for me, my why ties to ties to people, growing people, uh, and building really cool things.

And so as long as I'm part of an organization that is growing where I'm learning and I'm scaling and I'm being able to work with amazing people who they themselves are, you know, we're all together kind of growing and going down a learning journey, uh, I'm. Truly fulfilled and satisfied. So great. You know, that's awesome.

And if I can do it in an [00:27:00] environment, which, you know, with people that I find exciting, which is what I've found in, in the kind of financial services space and in the community banking space, uh, you know, I'm like, wow, that's, that's, that's pretty cool. 

I. 

josh_: Um, I love the question and and I like that you touched on two sides of it too, in that, in that, You know, part of it is your organization has to understand its why, and that's gonna help frame up your strategic objectives. And is this crazy idea worth pursuing if it means, you know, it's gonna be a long hard road, or it's gonna be met with a lot of failure, or it's gonna be, you know, there's gonna be people that are gonna try and shoot it down the whole way through.

Well, if the why is strong enough that you're gonna go through with it, but also just even your own personal why, right? And, um, you know, what is your purpose and what motivates you? And, and looking for like-minded people in the [00:28:00] sense that maybe we don't think or act or look the same, but you know, our why is the same.

And so therefore we're aligned on something that's really, really deep and strong. And you know, I, I loved when, uh, so, you know, I've kind of given our guests, uh, over the years, a peak behind the curtain of kind of how we run this show. And, um, I don't know, maybe you can, you can elaborate for others too, uh, how, uh, loosely that is defined.

You know, the goal is to keep this thing as, uh, as, as organic as possible. So there's actually a lot less structure this than people might think. Um, but you know, I, I've given people a, a peek behind the curtains that, you know, one of the things that I always do is I always ask my guests, before we record, just gimme three broad subjects that you're interested in talking about on the show.

And you know, the reason I bring it up is because I love that you actually literally put this in writing on the intake form. In quotes, like, one of the things that you get so excited [00:29:00] about is the mushy stuff, right? And just the, the fact that somebody would put mushy stuff on a document and send it over to me, I was like, you know what, Ryan and I we're gonna get along just fine.

This is gonna be great podcast. Um, 'cause I know, uh, you know, my team would probably laugh that, uh, I probably care about and talk too much about the mushy stuff too. And, and that kind of ties this whole conversation we've had for the last 30 minutes back together. Right. You know, you talked about, um, being a 12 year old and, and networking, like learning to network and find other amazing people that wanted to do this amazing thing with you.

And that became your why. Like, that was your motivation at that point was you really enjoyed, um, you know, just having those relationships with people centered around doing something great and. That's really similar to our adult lives and business, and that's a really powerful motivator.

ryan: Yeah. And I kind of think, I dunno [00:30:00] the, the, the message for me that I was, and I think I might drive people mad, uh, at the office, but, you know, the, the, the piece for me that I was kind of think about is I don't, I got advice when I was younger, you know, and I don't think about life as your personal home life and your work life and those being two separate things.

Like for me, I just, I, I just have a life and I wanna make sure that the learnings that I have, In my professional life that I'm able to then take those learnings into my personal life. Why would I shortchange myself and put up these boundaries which don't enable me to be able to learn from everything?

So two, how can I take the learnings in my personal life and my personal relationships and apply those in how I am at the office? So I think what happens is we end up putting up these kind of facades, right? And so we say, okay, cool. Well, I'm one way at the office and I'm one way at home, and I'm one way in another environment.

And I've never enjoyed that or seen kind of any value in it. And I think more importantly, the more self-aware I can be as a person [00:31:00] and the more self-aware I can be and understand what my triggers are as a human being. You know, what, what I'm passionate about, what I love, what my issues are, we'll have them, uh, the better I will be as a partner in business, right?

Whether that's with my clients or anyone else. Because if I'm sitting in a meeting. And I know that I have a particular trigger, um, and my client happens to press that exact button. Right? Um, if I've been working on that in my personal life and my personal relationships and my ability then in that meeting, in that instant to be able to go, oh, wait, I understand why I'm feeling triggered.

It's because of actually a whole bunch of childhood stuff that has nothing to do with this bank ceo. Like, okay, great. I can, like, I can, I can put that in a little box, I can move it aside, and I can be a far better partner to them, uh, you know, as I think about this stuff. But I, I also feel that in general, um, you know, like I think I mentioned earlier around sincerity and transparency.

I think that, that, the way, I don't think there's enough of that in relationships. I think that, especially when we talk [00:32:00] about, you know, the banking world and community-based financial services, I think that there is, what I like about it is that there's such focus on community. The piece, though, it's still pretty formal, right?

It's changing, it's evolving. Um, but I think that, you know, one of the things that I find is that, you know, when I connect with folks and when there's sincere interest and sincere connection, um, I find that people are, are thirsty for it, you know? Um, and I find that actually, you know, when you, when you walk into the room and you kind of end up breaking that, um, That pure formal sort of mode.

Uh, and I can often do it just 'cause I, as I say, I've got a funny accent and I come and I already sound different when I come in. Right. And so it's like, you know, it's the same reason why, you know, I, I wear a t-shirt into pretty much every meeting. Occasionally my team forces me to bring a blazer in, uh, which they, our head of sales to drag me to a store to actually get a blazer fitted onto me as I tried to like, you know, wrestle around him and try to escape, you know, the room.

Um, but I think it's like that, you know, I, I just think that's [00:33:00] very powerful when thinking about how to solve problems. Because I think that if we can get into the room and go, Hey, like what are you passionate about? Oh, I'm passionate about building X, y, Z technology, you know, in my financial institution for my community.

Okay, great. Well, you know, how do we align those things? And um, and then, you know, when, uh, when, when, uh, you know, when we hit an issue, uh, and there will always be an issue, uh, you know, we're, we're then aligned to be able to support each other through that, uh, more than just, oh, let's, you know, let's get out the contract and see what you're committed to.

It's, no, you've got my phone number. Just call me, you know, and let's, let's unpack it and, and uncover it together, you know?

josh_: Oh man. I couldn't agree anymore. I mean, seriously. Um, you know, it's funny, I, I actually just had a happy hour with, uh, a friend the other night, um, who's, uh, Um, works in this space as well. And, and we were just talking about the difference between relational contracts and contractual contracts and, and it's that exact point, right, of [00:34:00] like, in a contractual contract, it is an attorney trying to make sure my side is protected as possible.

And, and that's it. And I'm gonna put up as many walls and barriers as possible to that. And a relational contract is a, Hey Ryan, you and I, we, we agree we'd like to try and do business together for decades to come. So how can we structure a relationship that just says, we're gonna look out for each other, we're gonna care for each other.

We know neither one of us is gonna be perfect. We're not gonna like intentionally try and screw each other's businesses over. Um, but, you know, so we'll put some protections in place, but, but ultimately what we're trying to agree to is that, is that we're humans and on a human level, we're trying to do something really cool together.

And, and I really love that you were talking about just, you know, leveling with humans as humans. As you were talking, it was really funny. I was thinking about a, um, a super, like, blunt example of that was really recent for me. Um, [00:35:00] so I, I mean, I'll say I have tattoos, right? And I remember a time where it was really, really important for me to cover up my tattoos.

And so actually the, pretty much all of my tattoos can be covered with a t-shirt even. And um, and that was just a really personal side of me that I really didn't let out. And especially in the banking space, that's been a stigma, right? So I found this fascinating. I was at a conference recently. Now granted the conference was at a nice location where it was hot and it was kind of a vacation destination type conference, but it was all bankers and it was all executive level bankers.

And Ryan, I was absolutely blown away by how many people I saw that had exposed tattoos. And I was like, it, it was enough that it literally made me stop and just look around the room at one point. And I was [00:36:00] looking around and I saw one woman and she had a tattoo on her back shoulder. And I was like, that is a old tattoo.

I can tell you as someone who has tattoos, like that one's been around for a while and, and where I'm going with all of this is it really made me think, I bet you anything that woman has hid that tattoo for decades. But she got that tattoo decades ago. So that tells me something about her personality.

Right? And it tells me that she probably hid a part of her person of who she was for a really long time. And when we're talking about trying to build real, genuine relationships with people and, and what you were just talking about, you know, sitting there in the boardroom and being able to say, Hey, look like this is just who I am.

This is, this is Personal Ryan, this is Work Ryan, this is Corporate Ryan. This is at Home Ryan. And they're all the same person. Like this is just Ryan. Like this is just who [00:37:00] I am and this is just Josh and this is just who Josh is. And so now Ryan and Josh are coming together. As just who they are laying all their cards on the table and saying, we want to do something together.

We wanna do some amazing things together. I, I just, I really love that concept, but it is interesting how literally the concept of corporate sometimes gets in the way of that. Um, you know, we do the same thing. Like my team knows, they know I'm gonna show up to a big important meeting and I'm gonna be wearing a T-shirt and red chucks like they know it before I even show up.

I'm like, this is who we are. We're not gonna change who we are because if we change who we are, then that changes the foundation of where that relationship starts. It literally starts on a lie.

ryan: So it's interesting though, as I, I mean, as I think about this, what do you think, what do you think is at the, at the heart of the fear that you either felt or symptoms do you feel around around sharing the [00:38:00] tattoos?

josh_: I don't know. I mean, I think, uh, for me it was a generational thing, right? Like I. I think I came into the professional world at, at that kind of influx time, right? Like I kind of came into the professional world where some people had tattoos, some people didn't have tattoos. It was kind of in that crossover point.

And so I felt like I was in a little bit of a gray area of society, hadn't really defined am I supposed to not have these things or should I have these things? And two, you know, I live in Portland, Oregon and it's also really funny as I, you know, travel all over the country for, you know, now decades, um, in the Portland Airport, like you're the weirdo if you don't have tattoos, right?

But I go to other airports and other parts of the country and you are definitely weirdo you have the tattoos, you know? So I think that if for whatever reason, like that just became a [00:39:00] societal thing where. That was a really easily identifiable, you were a part of this group, or you were not a part of this group.

It's a very black or white. You either have or do not have tattoos, and some people take a very strong stance one way or the other about that. And so it was just a really clear indicator, like if I walked into a job and I had tattoos, like it just that, that, like I said, it was a very black and white thing.

And so I think that was what for me. I just, actually, I'll back it up. I, I'll tell you exactly what it was. I, I, you know, I've kind of said this before. I, for me, I just never wanted it to be the silly reason I got passed up for something that somebody made a judgment on me because of that and said, ah, you know what?

We really think Josh would kill it in this position, but, you know, he just doesn't fit our mold. And they didn't say it out loud, but it was because I had tattoos. Right. I just never wanted that. So I said, I'm just gonna eliminate that as a risk. I

see that as a [00:40:00] potential risk. I'm gonna eliminate that risk.

And so even for the longest time, you know, the most you would ever see me in was like, you know, two thirds or three quarters length sleeve shirts. So that I knew a hundred percent guarantee. Uh, I mean, my last job before Tyfone, I would put a really, really high percentage to, I bet you almost no one knew I had tattoos.

'cause I just made it a point I was gonna cover it.

ryan: But it's understandable, right? I mean, it's understandable and it was the, the, the question of of you wanna try and reduce the friction that you have in any of these engagements and relationships, I think makes sense. But it's still, um, like it's logical, but it's still painful, right? In terms of how we do that.

Like, I think, you know, I, um, and I mean we have this, I mean, if you think about this, I mean, this really just comes down to just prejudices that we have as just people, right? In terms of just society in general. And I mean [00:41:00] down to, I mean, there's silly stuff, right? Like I'll often get a comment, you know, when I get on a Zoom call or whatever it may be, and people are like, oh, thanks for dressing up for the meeting.

You know, it's often the comment that gets thrown out. And often, you know, the, the Mara taught to that. I mean, and you know, I'll wear a shirt that has our company logo. You know, it's not like I'll just, you know, for me it's more like my uniform. But, you know, my comment is, look, I wouldn't trust an accountant in shorts and a t-shirt, but you shouldn't trust an engineer in a suit and tie. I was like, any engineer wearing a suit and tie is uncomfortable. And I can tell you right now, like, you know, for me, when I realized is that if genuinely, you know, people talk about putting on a power suit and feeling amazing and like they stare and they're just like empowered, like I put on a suit and I feel like a fraud.

 Like I put in a student, I feel uncomfortable. I feel like, oh man, this is not me at all. But like, you know, I put on my sneakers, my t-shirt, you know, and my skinny jeans, and I'm ready to rock and roll. [00:42:00] And it's so I think for me, you know, the, the, the thinking is just what makes you comfortable. And so, you know, like it's like, I would just say, well, hey, like if you're, in other words, the, the, the thing for me as well, you know, it is just about what do I, what do I need to do that helps me perform the best? And it's like, if that means, for example, like, I, I don't, I wouldn't be in words, I almost wouldn't be critical, right? Or judgmental. It's like, well, hey, look, for example, yeah, it's, it's, it's shitty that that's how the environment works. But if you say to me, Hey, you feel more comfortable. Like a three quarter shirt, uh, 'cause that you, you know, used to help you perform and now you're at a different stage of life where now you feel different, you know, that kinda stuff.

It's like, great, well then do whatever helps make you, you know, do whatever empowers you. Uh, you know, to, to be able to be at your best and your best performance, I suppose. Dunno.

josh_: Yeah, I mean, wow. I definitely had no idea we were going down this path when we, uh, even started talking about having you [00:43:00] as a guest on the podcast. So this is what I love about this thing. You know, I, and I think what's crazy is, you know, we somehow got onto this example of tattoos, but um, to your point earlier, I mean, this is just a lot of human prejudice as a whole, right?

And like, I mean, I feel pretty crappy even feeling like, you know, I had to hide tattoos to prevent me from being promoted or something like that. Like that's actually a pretty small and insignificant prejudice. Like that's not nearly as big as some other major real ones that are like really big problems.

Um, but to your point, like we, what we want in our organizations, like if we're thinking about this from a company perspective, is we wanna hire people for them, for who they are, like genuinely who you are. And then we wanna see them excel because happy, confident people who are being themselves. As long as they align.

Right. Again, you don't [00:44:00] wanna hire an engineer to be an accountant and you don't wanna hire the accountant to be an engineer. Um, you wanna bring people in on their strengths, though. You wanna let them be themselves and then you want to set them up for success to shine and that's how your organization is gonna shine.

And building a culture around having people be themselves and be comfortable, um, is really empowering for people.

ryan: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's true. I mean, you know, my, my personal example that I had was, you know, I came out the closet when I was in my early twenties, and I remember at the time people saying to me, well, why did you take, when did you first know? And I was like, I was pretty sure I was, you know, I had questions from the time I was young.

Um, but for me, the fear was that I wasn't, it wasn't clear to me that I could be successful as a c e o of a tech company,

josh_: Hmm.

ryan: uh, being out. And I was like, that, that was just not clear to me. I didn't have any examples of that. This was, this was pre Tim Cook and a whole bunch of others. And so I was like, you know, that was not clear to me.

Um, and especially, and, and to be honest, [00:45:00] even today, like I, you know, I don't know. I'm pretty confident that. I'm just lucky that they, I'm what they call straight acting right in, in terms of, uh, in, in terms of like, you know, when people meet me the first time, then I go, oh, like this is a screaming queen.

And I, but I do think that if I went into a bank meeting, um, and was, you know, and didn't sound exactly like, you know, every other, you know, straight white dude, I'm pretty confident that there would be a bunch of discomfort. You know, like there, it would not be, it would be very different. You know, I'm, I'm pretty certain of it.

Um, and so, you know, I think it's an interesting question around that. I mean, I think for me, um, it is not something that's, that, you know, it, especially in, in, you know, in different industries. I think this is the challenge or the opportunity in many ways, you know, that I think that I think we have, right?

Uh, which is to kind of like open this up and, and I almost think that actually Covid did us a huge favor,

josh_: Mm.

ryan: um, in this, because suddenly when you're zooming from your [00:46:00] home, It's so much more intimate. Like there's a certain level of intimacy, right? When it's like you're, because before it's when would you ever get to see your client's house?

You know, when would you ever see like the dog, you know, their dog or that they even had a dog? Okay. Or like a family member coming in or them having to deal with a toddler or, you know, fill in all of these blanks or like, oh, you get to see the photos on the back wall, right? Uh, and you get to learn more about the person.

Um, and I think that that helps, that's kind of been super interesting as a trend to kind of help break down, you know, barriers and boundaries, you know, that I think have existed. Um, you know, in addition to of course just all the tech trends that had set off as well, um, you know, with kind of it accelerating everything banks are doing in terms of technology, which has been, you know, obviously pretty exciting.

josh_: Um, and I'm glad you made that comment too, that it, it is just, It is actually mind-boggling to me. And, and it's just, it's, it's so sad. Like how many people like you, you had [00:47:00] that realization, you, the kid who's 12 and said, I'm gonna build a giant freaking rocket of cans and break the world record. And then it actually accomplished it.

Right? Like you had had that experience of having a big idea, you know, having some crazy idea, seeing it through and, you know, having it try to be shot down so many times before and then later in life being like, I don't know if I can come out because I don't know if I can be seen as someone who can lead a tech company if I do.

Like, that's crazy. You know what I mean? Like, I mean obviously you do way more so than do, way more than I do, but it's just, it's actually like, it's really sad to me how much. Like, how many people does that actually impact? Right? Like, and how many people didn't follow through with their dreams because they were scared to be themselves?

You

did, 

ryan: or follow through with their [00:48:00] dreams. Or follow through with their dreams, but couldn't be themselves,

josh_: Yeah.

ryan: the other side of it, 

josh_: Or somebody like crushed them over because of some prejudice that they Right. So, yeah, I mean, I, I agree. I, I think that's one of the really weird blessings that came outta Covid is that I really do think that it humanized a lot of us. I think it broke down a lot of those barriers.

I think a lot of people are like, oh, you have a screaming toddler. I have a screaming

ryan: Exactly. Yeah.

josh_: Cool. All right. We have this shared Like, I'm gonna break down a wall on that. I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna interact with you more on a human level. And, you know, I think, um, I, I guess it shouldn't surprise me that we kind of came onto this track just because as we were originally talking and you were telling me about like, What are the things that are most important to you?

Like, what makes you you, and if you wanted somebody to know something about you, what would it be? And, and you talked so much about it, is it's really about the human side. [00:49:00] It's about the relationships, and that is what's greater than really any of this. And even as a, a 12 year old, and then as you know, someone coming out of the closet and starting a company like these, were all realizations for you that this is, this is about just being you.

Just being who you are, being, um, you know, that amazing person that you are, and wanting to connect with other amazing people to do amazing things. Like, that's, that's a really cool concept. But I guess, again, this comes literally all the way back to the comment I made earlier of how many times do great ideas get shot down or just never see the light of day because of, again, like you said, fill in the blank.

So many reasons.

ryan: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's, um, it's funny 'cause I don't, I don't even, to be honest, I didn't really even feel qualified at all to even talk about this stuff. 'cause I feel like in so many ways, um, I've been so fortunate. And that I haven't really faced, I've been very lucky, to be honest. [00:50:00] Like I, I haven't, I haven't really faced much prejudice, you know, in, you know, in my life.

And so, um, you know, I don't, I don't even, you know, I, I know that I, I know that it's an obstacle. Um, I haven't necessarily seen it. I don't know, you know, as I said, I have some suspicions as to why that is. I think it's just 'cause I was lucky with the, you know, skin color I was born into from that perspective.

And the, you know, you know, taking any other variable that makes, that makes one, you know, traditionally a minority in any kind of way. Um, but I think, um, um, you know, I think that, I think that these are, these are complex, these are complex issues that I think that we only get to deal with if we're happy to engage.

And we're happy to be open and talk about it. And, you know, and we, and we talk about this stuff, you know, in our business as well, right? It's like, How do we, how do we think about diversity in the company, in the workplace? And, and these are not simple matters. And I think for me, it's like one of the [00:51:00] things we try to talk about them openly all the time.

And the first thing I'll start off with in any kind of conversation around this that I have no clue what I'm talking about here. And so I typically invite, yeah, it's like I typically invite people to come and help me. You know, it's like, help me to understand what that means. I know I want it, but I, but I can't, this is one of those areas where I, I maybe have one area that I can like really empathize in, and there's like one area in the space that, that I'm able to have shared experience.

Um, but um, but I think it just requires the openness, right? And the empathy, you know, to be able to, to be able to make any sort of progress.

josh_: Yeah. I wanna make that same statement that you made do in that I, I do too. Especially as somebody who hosts a podcast, when we get into deep conversations like this, I'm like, oh man, a, a part of me feels like I need to just bow out. Um, 'cause I'm so incredibly egregiously underqualified to, to have these conversations.

But I [00:52:00] also feel like it's really important for me to have those conversations for a couple of reasons. One, I think it's important to show others like me that are really underqualified, that we should be still having these conversations. These things are really, really important. And two, by having them feel like I'm gaining education out of this, that's so incredibly important.

And, and it just gives me so much more perspective as I continue to navigate life, not just my personal life or my professional life, just life as you put it, as I navigate life and making sure that I'm able to connect with people on, on different levels and to empathize with other people's situations.

And you know, one of the things that I think I've really realized later in life is that, um, you know, people's, um, people's challenges, people's obstacles, um, people's, uh, you know, the, the adversity that they face, it's all relative. Right. And if the worst thing that's ever happened to you is somebody said something [00:53:00] mean to you on Twitter, then that really is the worst thing that ever happened to you.

Right. Um, I have a fascinating conversation. One of my favorite people to talk to, um, are, uh, or my guys, I'll give 'em the shout out. Um, Ivan and Vitaly from Self-Reliance Federal Credit Union outta Chicago. And they're a Ukrainian based seg. Right. And especially in the early onset of the war in Ukraine. Um, you know, just talking to those guys, it was really, really interesting to see, um, that concept applied.

They were like, oh, yeah, yeah. You know, literally, literally yesterday's challenges are very different than today's.

ryan: Hmm.

josh_: yesterday, we may have bickered at the grocery store over I like apples better than oranges. And today I could not care less. You may like apples. I like oranges. We both wanna [00:54:00] live and we don't wanna get bombed in our sleep tonight.

Like all of a sudden our new reality had a very big impact on the hardest thing that has happened to me is now very, very different. And I, and I think that's something important for us all to remember. And again, like even literally what you were talking about, about, you know, being in the boardroom and somebody saying something and being like, I'm triggered by that.

Like, having that understanding and that knowledge is really, really powerful to be able to say we're all going through something. We all have something different. Your biggest challenge may be different than mine, and it may seem insignificant to me, but it's big to you. And, and again, the, the point I'm trying to make with all of this is just we're, we're all humans just trying to navigate this.

And if we're all coming at it from a place of, of empathy and a place of love and of support and just, you know, I, I [00:55:00] feel like I'm overusing this word, but that's the story of my life. Like, we're just, we're just trying to do amazing things. Like that should be our goal. We're trying to do amazing things alongside amazing people and recognizing that we all may have a very different starting point.

Very different challenges, very different opportunities, but just seeing each other as other humans and wanting to do amazing things, like that's pretty cool. I can get behind that.

ryan: So it's, um, it's funny 'cause I suppose, I suppose at some stage we should probably talk about banking technology, right? And

josh_: Yeah. You know, like an hour into this podcast, people are like, you guys,

is this a banking podcast or what?

ryan: we, now that the introduction's done, we can, we can get into chapter one, but it's, it, it, it's funny 'cause I was, I was thinking, um, you know, it's, for me it's like the, the technology as we think about solving technology challenges and technological challenges in banking and stuff, it's like so much of it is in fact, [00:56:00] In the, is in the relationship and actually the technology side of it, like the actual tech is actually not that complicated.

Um, and um, and it's, it's funny 'cause I, I, I see, I see that over and over again, right? It's like, it is often the case that in the, in the, the, the technological problems that we're needing to solve, there's some really interesting technical problems, right? Um, but, but what in general, I, we're not, we're not putting people on the moon.

Like, like when I look at the, the, like, the nature of the technical complexity, uh, and the scale of the technical complexity of the kinds of problems we're actually solving, um, I happen to find them interesting. Uh, and, um, and, and certainly they're, they're, they're kind of fun problems to solve. Um, but the barrier to success is not the technical difficulty.

That is not the barrier. We're not trying to figure out something that is never before being done. And we're trying to truly innovate. And that is the gap that if we can, if [00:57:00] we can pass that hurdle, you know, of true like technological innovation, that that is how we will get to the next level. Like, it's just simply not true.

Like there's, you know, like the, the fundamentals of banking are still, are still, um, and, and certainly from a technology standpoint are, are, are, are, are not, are not that insane. So then the real success then comes to how do we tie these pieces together and get people to work together. And it's like we, you know, one of the things that we found as an example, you know, I mentioned the example earlier about integrations.

People spoke about, oh man, like, do you integrate into this core? Do you integrate into that core Getting our core integrate? That's the biggest challenge. You know, for us, the secret that we found that literally the secret to success for us of getting entry into the core was just to get to know the people at the core.

josh_: Yeah.

ryan: And it's like, oh, wow, who to thank? It's like if I just get to know the folks at the core, then, then suddenly actually they're just people and you can understand like what they're up to and what they're trying to do. And it turns out a whole bunch of these doors can be opened. Uh, you know, [00:58:00] and so for us it was like, wow, okay, cool.

So then it's not, it's not like it's the scary complex problem that can never, ever be solved. Uh, no. It's like, you, you can solve all of this stuff. Uh, it turned out it was like, core integration was not a technical challenge. It was a people challenge. Um, you know, and then so getting to build the right relationships.

Um, for example, in that scenario we were like, oh, fine, now we get it. You know? Now we can understand what some of the challenges are, um, and how to overcome them. Um, but certainly I remember like in the beginning thinking about this thing, everyone blew up for me. Like, oh, how complicated this is. How are we gonna have to think about?

And don't get me wrong, it's certainly painful, right? It's not like it's, it's, it's, it's, um, It certainly has challenges like connecting between a whole bunch of different legacy systems. Um, you know, fine, but, but there's technology out there that does it and, you know, um, and, and you know, we've, we've worked with different partners to do that and all the rest, but it really came down to just building the right relationships.

josh_: You know, I really wanted to talk about this when you, uh, touched on it earlier, so I'm glad you brought it [00:59:00] back up. Um, 'cause I was thinking kind of the same thing. I, I think that's something that we hear a lot of times as a digital banking company is, you know, oh, have you integrated to X, Y, and And a lot of times, like that's, that's literally the non-negotiable.

Um, and you know, I'm gonna use egregious examples. Those of you that know me well enough know this is my, my way of doing things. But you know, we will though. They're like, well, have you integrated to our estatements provider before? Like, no, we haven't. Like how? Well then obviously we can't go with you guys 'cause uh, you know, you haven't, you solve every single one of our business objectives.

Uh, you're culturally aligned with us. We absolutely love your product, but you know, you haven't integrated our statements vendor, so it's just, it's not gonna work. We're like, well I haven't integrated that one, but I've done 27 others. And it's basically the same thing. Um, you know, and, and I do want to be respectful of, there are absolutely real technology challenges that do have to be solved.

It's not as trivial as we're [01:00:00] making it out to seem like there is actual work that has to be done. And there is, you know, challenges with not knowing what you don't know. Right? And once you open up the black box and you start looking around and you're like, oh gosh, you know, we said we could integrate to this in.

You know, two weeks, it's, it's not gonna be two weeks because we found this unknown that we, you know, didn't know, obviously, because we hadn't integrated to it before. So there, there are those elements to it. But, um, you know, same thing, I, you've gotta do it once. Somebody's gotta be first. And, you know, in this industry, especially amongst the technology providers, we're all integrating to each other all the time.

I mean, this is constantly happening. It's, it's never ending. We literally have a dedicated team that does nothing but integrate to things to earn a paycheck. Like, that's literally what they do. And, and it's funny, we had a really similar experience as you, I, uh, I actually wasn't at Typhoon when this story [01:01:00] happened, but you talk to some of the OGs and everybody remembers it like it was yesterday.

And when we first, uh, you know, started having conversations with credit unions, that was a big deal breaker was had you integrated to Symitar, Jack Henry's core right. And we'd say, no, we don't have an integration. Okay, cool. I don't wanna be first. So finally the first credit union was like, Hey, we'll be your first.

Let's do this. Go integrate to Jack Henry's Symitar core. So our team reaches out, says, Hey, we just, you know, signed up with this, uh, credit union. We're gonna be their digital banking provider. We need to integrate to your core. Jack Henry goes, okay, great. Uh, here's our documentation. It's like 6,000 pages. It's gonna take you like six months.

Call us when you're ready. And our team kind of took a similar approach and was like, Hey, can, can we just work with you guys? And like, what, what have you found work? Well, what are some of the challenges we should face? Jack Henry responded really well and kind, and they were like, oh, cool. Yeah, let's just sit down at the table.

Let's talk this through. [01:02:00] Um, and they ended up doing it in like a third, the time and all of this. And, and again, same thing. We, we kind of looked at how do we rinse and repeat. And so, Um, you know, we have a phenomenal relationship with another core provider, E S P at Spokane, Washington. Why? Because, like you were talking about earlier, we don't just, um, you know, have this contract or this, you know, quote unquote paper partnership with them.

Our team knows, oh, you just pick up the phone and call E S P. Like, Hey, how, how does your a p I work for this? Oh, it works like that. Sweet. Cool. Thanks. Appreciate it. Have a great day. Like, it's just a very different type of, um, it's a very different type of technology arrangement when you actually have a relationship behind it.

So there is a lot of importance and value in the mushy stuff.

ryan: Well, and so the, the one question that's probably helpful to ask in that is, well, um, what would cause one to decide, we're not going down this path unless you've done it before. [01:03:00] Like, how does, how does one decide when to apply that decision? Like, is there a framework one can use? And I think something for me that have, have you read the book?

Um, do you know the book Crossing the Chasm?

josh_: I don't know.

ryan: um, it is like, for me, so it was, it was, um, it was written by Geoffrey Moore, I think it is Jeffrey one. Um, I think it's Geoffrey Moore, one of the Moores is a, a an astrologist, and the other one wrote this book. Um, and um, basically he, um, the book was written I think in the eighties and then, and then revised again in like the, the 2000s.

And it's essentially, a, like a SaaS marketing book around how do you think about defining a market, like how do you think about entering a market in particular? And, and he kind of talks about the typical, you know, bell curve distribution where, uh, you know, you, at the very start of the bell curve, you have your innovators, right?

And as he describes, it's like the innovators are the folks where, you know, kind of 15 years ago they were really excited about, about like, AR headsets, you know. Um, so these are the folks [01:04:00] where they're typically not excited to pay. For new technology, but they, but, but they will test, they will debug, they will try it, and they will like, use, um, um, new technology and they will test this thing to the nth degree, um, in exchange for getting early access, right?

So like, they're, they're like your best alpha testers on the planet, right? So they, they're not, they're not, they're not very many of them. Um, but it's like they love new technology for the sake of new technology and they're critical in the lifecycle. Because as a business, you need to have, you need to have alpha testers, right?

You need the folks who are prepared to be the first Guinea pigs. You're not gonna make money off them, but you need people who prepare to use it and give you product feedback. And there's a tiny, there's only few of them. Then you get your, your early adopters. And your early adopters are defined as the, the segment in the market that are seeking a competitive advantage, and they're prepared to pay a premium for it, right?

So when you think about your early adopter, they're looking at this and they're going, Hey, if this technology's gonna give me a competitive edge, I will happily [01:05:00] pay a premium. And that premium may come in the, um, in the form of literally a premium in terms of dollars. But it could also come in the form of I'm happy to deal with a buggy software.

Like I'm happy to deal with a system that's got a ton of bugs. I'm happy to deal with a system where they're gonna be ironing out all the kinks and where it may only be up, you know, it's got an uptime of like 70%, not 99.999, you know? Um, and, and, but at the end of the day, I'm happy to pay that price because of the competitive edge it gives me in the market, okay.

Over anyone else. And therefore that is sufficiently valuable to me that I'm happy to pay for it. And then you get your early majority, right? And your early majority are the folks where they're, they don't want a buggy product. They want the product that's had all the kinks worked out. And in particular, one of the characteristics of the early majority is they require examples of reference customers similar to them.

That have also used this product because for them, that is the hallmark of a tried and tested solution. They're happy to pay fair money for it. Um, um, and, um, um, and they want, they [01:06:00] typically do that for the incremental benefit and, uh, inefficiency or gains that they'll then get, um, you know, in their business.

Now, the reason I, I think that this frame, and then of course it goes all the way down to late, late adopters and then laggards who the guys who are still, you know, using blackberries. But, um, you know, as you think about, um, as you think about those, what I think is so useful is, um, you are not a particular type of buyer.

You are not typecast as a particular type of buyer in that journey for everything. It is product dependent. So for example, there are some things for which I'm absolutely an innovator. There are other areas where I'm absolutely a laggard and everywhere in between. And so for example, you know, if you had to come now and market, you know, um, I don't know, accounting software, to me.

Or, you know, like security entry software or something like that. Like, I'm definitely a laggard, like I have zero interest in innovating in accounting software. You know, like that is just the least interesting thing you could ever hope to sell me. Like, I'm not a great customer [01:07:00] if you're a new, innovative online accounting SaaS platform.

Um, just because it's just it, we have very simple accounting, you know, like, you know, our banks pay us annually and that's it. You know what I mean? So it's, it's, you know, it's just not interesting. Um, you know, if you, you know, at the same time, like in my personal life, right? It's like, well, what would I be an innovative for versus nearly majority versus nearly adopt?

And being able to classify yourself with respect to the particular technology you're looking to purchase is so helpful because what it does is it enables you to then prep the, the, the partners, the technology partners you're talking to, and prep the team. To be able to understand and manage expectations.

And so for me it's like I'm often, you know, when we are talking to a large institution or, or any type of client, I'm typically trying to listen to understand what are they looking for, you know, you know, do I understand what that is? And the more that I think that technology partners are able to ask, and the more that financial institutions are able to tell, you know, all these pieces of [01:08:00] information, the smoother, all these, all these kind of systems go in.

As a, as an example, if as a, if as a financial institution, they take a decision to say that we are looking for a new online banking solution. As an example, right now, if they're looking for a new online banking solution, But this is not gonna be a competitive edge. They just need this thing to work and never go down.

Right? That is their sole requirement. Okay? They're probably a late majority or an early majority. In other words, they just wanna know that this thing's gonna absolutely work. They're gonna, they wanna know that it's worked a million times, it's been done on their core system before. Like, this is not a competitive advantage.

This is not where they're gonna be making the money or setting themselves apart. Um, and so I would say, okay, great. Then they should know who they are and they should go, they should come into the meeting with that, right? It's like, here is what we need. We need to know that you've got 10 reference customers on our core and our identical setup.

We need to know that you've worked with people in our geography, on our time zone. You know, like all these other things. Um, and by the way, we're not [01:09:00] gonna pay a premium. Like we need to know that you're big enough that we're now dealing with like, economies of scale, right? Versus for example, Um, you know, a a a financial institution that says, Hey, we wanna bank new FinTech startups.

That's the market we are going after. And if we wanna bank FinTech startups, like we know that, they're like, we wanna make sure that we've got a p i banking. And so we wanna enable these banks to literally interface, sorry, these clients to interface with, with online banking through via a p i. Right?

So that they, because I don't know they've got a particular need for that. Okay, well then guess what? Like in that case, you're probably an early adopter. And so, so, you know, I, you, you don't have, you don't have the ability to say, well, I need to know that you've worked with other banks. In fact, that's a downside.

I wanna know that you haven't worked with any other banks. 'cause I wanna create something net new. In fact, I wanna know that I'm your most important client. 'cause I'm okay with the fact that I comprise 60% of your revenue because that way I end up getting an extension of my bank. Like I get an extended dev shop who's [01:10:00] not gonna build out all the focus for everything for me.

And it's like, so for me, being able to put yourself in one of those buckets, So useful because then actually you, you know, you get the most benefit. And then, so neither side is trying to pitch the other one. Uh, that there's something they're not. Right. It's like both sides are just very clear on what they need, uh, and what and what success looks like.

josh_: Huh? Did you just literally tie our whole hour of like shenanigans down rabbit trails all together in your like final sentence there of like, be who you are, be able to identify who you are and say like, this is my type of bank, this is where I fall for

type of 

ryan: all about technology, banking the whole time.

josh_: whole time. Wow.

I'm like, you got mad skills, sir. Like, you prepped this. That was like the, the long con, the whole way through. Just setting it up, but oh man. [01:11:00] Yeah. Seriously. Awesome job. Um, being able to identify like this, this is the type of buyer we are for this type of product. Can really have significant impacts on ultimately being able to say, to define what success looks like, and at the end of it, be able to say, this was successful, right?

We, we made the right pick, we picked the right partner, we picked the right piece of technology, we picked the right piece of software. I mean, it's one of my favorite questions to ask people is like, how are you going to define success? Like, what does success look like for you? And, and if you're struggling to identify that that's a problem, like that needs to be the starting point.

Like what is success gonna look like? What type of, you know, buyer persona are we in this scenario? And so, yeah, if, if you say, you know, our, our buyer persona in this scenario [01:12:00] is, you know, the laggard. And yeah, you're, you know, bringing in a bunch of companies for your R F P that are, uh, you know, five person startups that have no idea where to even buy a suit from.

That's probably a really big mismatch. Right. And, and somebody's time's getting wasted in that.

ryan: To be clear, we, I mean, I still dunno where to buy a suit from and we are 135 people just don't, let's not hate on the people who dunno where to buy suits from. Okay.

josh_: Um, I know I've used this example in, in other podcasts, but I think it's valuable in bringing back up in this one too, is, um, you know, I, I, I really, really love this story from just the story itself, but also the message that it sends and it's one of our bank customers, she was telling me about how, you know, they, they really broke their own [01:13:00] culture.

Um, internally, and they used to have this culture much like a traditional bank, and this scenario kind of helped them break it. And they were trying to solve a very specific strategic objective. They had a very clearly defined use case. They were trying to, like you said, break into a new market, do something very different, differentiate on it.

They identified a piece of software that could help them do that. They bring these guys in to come pitch it. They show up at the bank. Uh, severely underdressed looked like they hadn't slept all night. Their hair wasn't combed. And you know, internally they're all messaging each other like, oh my gosh, I bet these guys were up all night last night coding this to make it work for today.

And, and the long story short was they really were, they were literally like the founders of the company and the dev guys. And they were up all night trying to make it work for this demo. Anyway, [01:14:00] the comment was is they were like, we would've booted them out of the room right off the bat. Like, Nope, we're laggards.

We, we want to know you've done this 10 times over for 10 banks, exactly like us. But they said, no. Like what we're trying to solve here is be different and be new. And that means we've gotta be open to something that's different and new. And again, the, the end of the story is this ended up being extremely successful for them.

Right? And so they had to think differently going forward.

ryan: But it's, I think that, but that, that ties into that self-awareness, right? It ties into like, are you, are you sufficiently thoughtful about what is important about why you're doing this thing? And in my analogy, is this our accounting system we're looking at, right? Um, or is this our, like, Data vendor for business verification or whatever it is that you know, you're most excited about, that's like unlock, you know, your next opportunity.

Um, you know, and I think, I think for [01:15:00] me, um, the exercise of going through that is almost as important as the answer, uh, you know, as a financial institution. 'cause I think that going through that journey is gonna give tremendous clarity and alignment before you go down any technology decision. Um, you know, so that, you know, and honestly it's just, it makes, it really makes the technology partner's life a lot easier, you know, if you can come in and share that information, you know, so I feel like so often there's this kind of dynamic, there's a power dynamic that's set up, um, um, you know, where, um, it is like the financial institution buying from the technology partner, uh, as opposed to it is two parties coming together to see if they're the right fit.

Right. Um, and I think that, that, that power dynamic being set up, unfortunately, I think can result in the wrong motivations, um, and the wrong way of information sharing. Whereas if it's just two parties coming together to say, Hey, [01:16:00] like I'll be a good fit or not, I, um, you know, it's so much easier. And that's why I think it's often, it's often, um, it's, it is, I think it's often why it's easier for financial institutions to buy, you know, when they have the conversation at the non-sales level.

'cause there's, like, that's why I love selling 'cause I don't have a personal quota, right? So it's like I can, you know, I can come into the room and often just say, Hey, like, are we even a good fit? Like, does this even make sense? Like, like almost almost to pitch it the other way, it's like, tell me why you even need us again.

Like, why, why are we gonna provide even a single bit of value? And it's like, and it's almost sometimes, sometimes I'll almost do that because one, if the financial institution can't articulate that well then either we've done a poor job at telling it, or we genuinely just not a good fit, in which case, great, like we should, you know, I'd love to refer you onto someone who I think could help.

Um, or they start selling back to us and then we get outta the sales cycle and it's just like, okay, great. Then let's do business, [01:17:00] you know?

josh_: Um, actually that's really funny that you say that story because, um, so the, the bank that I was telling you about that um, that kind of went through that whole journey. Um, so they were our first bank customer and that's exactly how that kind of story went is we actually almost tried to scare 'em off.

'cause we got so sick and tired of banks coming to us saying, you guys look really cool and you look like sexy software and we want to do this. And then, oh, you haven't integrated to our core. Oh, you've never worked with a bank before. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. And it always ended the same. And so this bank came to us and we're like, Hey, we know how this story ends.

You guys are gonna tell us how much you love us, that you don't wanna be first. Like, let's just like, are we even the right fit for you? We are going to represent in like in your analogy from [01:18:00] earlier, like, we are going to, you're gonna have to be an innovator to want to pick us. So are you. And they're like, yeah, stop trying to scare us off.

We're, we're ready to do this. And ultimately they did. Right? Um, but to your point, like they had really, really good self-awareness of like, where do we fit in this category? And then we were able to just come and sit at the table and go, all right, so let's just put our cards in. Are we a good fit for each other?

Because does your why and our why o I like do those line up and just, are we gonna, are we gonna be able to be ourselves together

ryan: Yeah, yeah. Understand it's sales is fun. Then like sales becomes a lot of fun, you know, which I think is the cool part of 

josh_: coming from that standpoint? Yeah.

ryan: Yeah, 

josh_: agree. Yeah.

ryan: I, I, I love sales all the time, to be honest, but,

josh_: I need, I think it turns my wife nuts in like, [01:19:00] I love it too. I actually love to be sold. I love to be sold. Like as somebody with a sales background, when somebody does a really good job, I'm like, ah, that was awesome. Like, that was such cool experience. But on the same token, when somebody's doing a terrible job, I just have like zero patience for it.

ryan: But it's, I like to be a nice buyer though. So like, if people, like, if S D R will call me, um, or whatever it is, you know, I like to be like super clear. 'cause I know the checklist they're trying to fill out to qualify me. Um, and it's like, I'm happy to like, help fast forward that for them so that they can very quickly understand like, am I qualified opportunity?

Like, am I not, should they pass me on to the, you know, like, where, where do we sit? You.

josh_: we should share, I bet we have stories to share on that too. Because same thing. I, so you know, I think too, part of this is just our line of work, right? Like, I represent a very important technology relationship for financial institutions. Like if, actually a lot of times when my customers [01:20:00] call, like they are literally are asking, you know, what we're gonna have for dinner or something.

But for the most part, like, if a customer calls you, they need you, right? So if my phone rings, I answer just period, I, I, they, you know, might have picked up a different office line that I don't have saved in my phone, and I may not realize that it's actually a customer calling me. So, Like I just, I answer my phone.

If I'm not on the other line, my phone rings, I answer it. And so what that means is I get a lot of the cold salespeople, the SDRs reaching out and same thing I like, I'm like, Hey look, sell me. I wanna see like articulate your value proposition. Demonstrate to me that you've done your research. Like the ones that drive me nuts are the SDRs that'll call me.

And they're like, Josh, alright, I've done my research. I absolutely guarantee that you as the, you know, VP of sales and marketing for Typhoon are looking to get more leads. And I can absolutely demonstrate how we can get you more leads in healthcare today. [01:21:00] And I'm like, I don't sell to healthcare, man. is utterly useless to I'm like, that kills me. Like, no, please do your research,

but. 

ryan: through. We forward them to our sales team. You know, when we get, when we get an email that comes like, you know, like, got it completely wrong. But so too, by the way, emails that come in to get it right. I get excited about it. I'm 

josh_: I get excited about that yes. 

ryan: afford, I go, Hey guys, use this template. It's great.

josh_: Yeah, I know that it, it, that is like the fun side of that is I love to see people get it right. And I love when, um, and actually I was in a meeting with my, um, director of brand marketing. He and I, uh, like got together for lunch at the office. I get a call, I answer it, and this sales rep is just killing it.

And I was like, so impressed. I put him on speaker and Kevin's listening. And [01:22:00] then what's funny is Kevin ultimately ended up actually being the buyer. And we actually did end up buying, but it was one of those like, Uh, just did an awesome job. Did the research, came in great pitch, and I was like, man, he's doing so good.

I just wanna share this. And I like, listen in this, this guy's doing great.

ryan: I, you know, I, it's, it's funny 'cause I remember someone called us to talk about, um, it was someone I think that's doing SOC certification or something like that, that do they, they do the SOC uh, 

josh_: Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

ryan: And I remember the corner, like, um, and I, you know, they happened to catch me and I was, I was pretty busy.

And they're, they're like, Hey, Ryan, I just wanted to talk to you about, you know, da da. And I was like, what, what, what do you wanna talk about? And they're like, SOC, you know, SOC audits? I was like, okay. I was like, they're pretty painful. Yes. It's like they, can you make them less painful? They're like, yeah, yeah, we can actually, and I could hear the excitement from in their voice.

And I said, well, look, let me just be clear with you right now. I'm like, we've just signed our contract, you know, with like, with this, [01:23:00] this other firm, but, but here's the date of our renewal. Here's when you should call us. Here's the person you should contact on the date, you should contact them. And I was like, and then, you know, you definitely consider us qualified.

We'll certainly take a demo or, you know, we'll take a call. Um, it's fun to like, you know, be able to give back. Uh, you know, I kind of feel like to make someone else's life a little bit easier.

josh_: You know, again, this, uh, comes back to kind of where we went all over from earlier in this episode of like, we are literally just all humans just trying to do this thing on this giant, you know, round rock, hurdling through space. At the end of the day, we are like, and, and salespeople are too, and I think that that is really interesting.

 And you know, even you catch me on the wrong day and sometimes I don't respond the way I probably wish that I had, but, Salespeople are just people too, and they're really trying to like put food on their table like they really are. And you know, some of 'em are unfortunately trying to go about it the wrong [01:24:00] way.

But for like all intents and purposes, probably the vast majority of 'em, they're good people and they're just people and they're just trying to figure out their way and they're just trying to do their job just like any one of us is trying to do our job in any given day.

ryan: Yeah, it's true. I, I think for me, the biggest question. For me is how do I be a better buyer? Right. Especially in the tech space. 'cause it's a more sophisticated interaction. And so I think it's, and I think that that's for me, what all this comes back to is that, is that, you know, if I have clarity, if I'm clear on what I need, um, you know, and I, and I can engage with transparency and with empathy.

With empathy, uh, like, we'll, we'll get a better result and I'll pick a better solution. You know, think that's what it comes down to.

josh_: yeah, that's great advice on both sides of the coin. Uh, Ryan, I just have to say, I, I feel like I made a new best friend today. Just in this conversation. I can't tell you how much I've appreciated just the opportunity [01:25:00] to get to know you and, and have this conversation and go all the different random places that we did, and how somehow magically you had these mad skills that tied it all back together.

ryan: There was nothing random. It was all scripted,

josh_: Yeah. It was all scripted. This was written out. The marketing team did a solid job. Yeah.

ryan: No, Josh, thank you. I this has, this has really been a lot of fun. I've really enjoyed it and, uh, you know, I, I think it's always fun to kind of weave and kind of mean our way through, uh, you know, personal and, and, and life and, uh, business and work and all the rest. You know, that's, that's where the magic is.

josh_: yeah. I'm, I mean, again, like you called it out earlier, you know, it's not my personal life and my work life, like, it's just life. We're just doing life. Yeah. Um, well, before I let you go, two final questions for you. So, uh, first up, where do you go to get information, uh, and stay up to date on what's happening in our industry?

ryan: Um, maybe this is, I don't know if this is [01:26:00] as traditional or not. Uh, so for me it's actually the investment banking community. Um, so that's where, where, where I end up going because I think that, um, you know, investment bankers are sitting and talking and engaging with. Community, banks and community, you know, financial institutions and credit unions all the time.

Right. Uh, to understand like what is happening in the industry. And so they're seeing and hearing, uh, you know, both what is happening at the macro level, um, as well as, you know, the kinds of decisions that, that, that, you know, CEOs are kind of making and thinking about. Um, and so for me, you know, we've, we, uh, you know, particularly we've, we've built a great relationship with K B W, who we really love.

Um, but I think that, you know, just getting a sense from the investment community, I think I find really, really interesting. Um, you know, in terms of giving just quality, quality insight to the market and what's happening.

josh_: Awesome. Uh, and if people want to connect with you and if they wanna learn more about Doc Fox and what you're all up to, how do they do that?

ryan: Yeah. Best just to go to our website, [01:27:00] which is doc fox.io. Uh, and, uh, and they can, they can reach out to us, uh, you know, via the site.

josh_: Awesome. Again, I just, I can't thank you enough for the opportunity to have had this shared experience with an amazing person and just this really fun conversation where I felt like I got to know you, like you said, on, on both the personal and professional front. And, um, yeah, just thank you for the time.

I, I feel like I'm literally walking away from this truly privileged and honored to have had this conversation with

ryan: Well, Josh, ditto. I really loved it and, and, and really just appreciate, you know, the opportunity. It's been really fun.

josh_: Yeah. Well, thank you for coming and being a guest on the Digital Banking Podcast.

ryan: Thanks, man.